Passages similar to: Timaeus — Introduction and Atlantis
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Timaeus
Introduction and Atlantis (25e)
Critias: and when you were speaking yesterday about the State and the citizens you were describing, I marvelled as I called to mind the facts I am now relating, reflecting what a strange piece of fortune it was that your description coincided so exactly for the most part with Solon's account. I was loth, however,
What is that? The State which we have been describing is said to be wise as being good in counsel? Very true. And good counsel is clearly a kind of kn...
(428) into view, and in this I detect a certain peculiarity. What is that? The State which we have been describing is said to be wise as being good in counsel? Very true. And good counsel is clearly a kind of knowledge, for not by ignorance, but by knowledge, do men counsel well? Clearly. And the kinds of knowledge in a State are many and diverse? Of course. There is the knowledge of the carpenter; but is that the sort of knowledge which gives a city the title of wise and good in counsel? Certainly not; that would only give a city the reputation of skill in carpentering. Then a city is not to be called wise because possessing a knowledge which counsels for the best about wooden implements? Certainly not. Nor by reason of a knowledge which advises about brazen pots, I said, nor as possessing any other similar knowledge? Not by reason of any of them, he said. Nor yet by reason of a knowledge which cultivates the earth; that would give the city the name of agricultural? Yes. Well, I said, and is there any knowledge in our recently-founded State among any of the citizens which advises, not about any particular thing in the State, but about the whole, and considers how a State can best deal with itself and with other States? There certainly is. And what is this knowledge, and among whom is it found? I asked. It is the knowledge of the guardians, he replied, and is found among those whom we were just now describing as perfect guardians. And what is the name which the city derives from the possession of this sort of knowledge? The name of good in counsel and truly wise.
What sort of lie? he said. Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician 41 tale of what has often occurred before now in other places, (as the poets...
(414) deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city? What sort of lie? he said. Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician 41 tale of what has often occurred before now in other places, (as the poets say, and have made the world believe ) though not in our time, and I do not know whether such an event could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable, if it did. How your words seem to hesitate on your lips! You will not wonder, I replied, at my hesitation when you have heard. Speak, he said, and fear not. Well then, I will speak, although I really know not how to look you in the face, or in what words to utter the audacious fiction, which I propose to communicate gradually, first to the rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly to the people. They are to be told that their youth was a dream, and the education and training which they received from us, an appearance only; in reality during all that time they were being formed and fed in the womb of the earth, where they themselves and their arms and appurtenances were manufactured; when they were completed, the earth, their mother, sent them up; and so, their country being their mother and also their nurse, they are bound to advise for her good, and to defend her against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as children of the earth and their own brothers. You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie which you were going to tell.
If thou but lately into this blind world Hast fallen down from that sweet Latian land, Wherefrom I bring the whole of my transgression, Say, if the...
(2) If thou but lately into this blind world Hast fallen down from that sweet Latian land, Wherefrom I bring the whole of my transgression, Say, if the Romagnuols have peace or war, For I was from the mountains there between Urbino and the yoke whence Tiber bursts." I still was downward bent and listening, When my Conductor touched me on the side, Saying: "Speak thou: this one a Latian is." And I, who had beforehand my reply In readiness, forthwith began to speak: "O soul, that down below there art concealed, Romagna thine is not and never has been Without war in the bosom of its tyrants; But open war I none have left there now. Ravenna stands as it long years has stood; The Eagle of Polenta there is brooding, So that she covers Cervia with her vans. The city which once made the long resistance, And of the French a sanguinary heap, Beneath the Green Paws finds itself again; Verrucchio's ancient Mastiff and the new, Who made such bad disposal of Montagna, Where they are wont make wimbles of their teeth.
To me it seemed, in passing, to do outrage, Seeing the others without being seen; Wherefore I turned me to my counsel sage. Well knew he what the...
(4) To me it seemed, in passing, to do outrage, Seeing the others without being seen; Wherefore I turned me to my counsel sage. Well knew he what the mute one wished to say, And therefore waited not for my demand, But said: "Speak, and be brief, and to the point." I had Virgilius upon that side Of the embankment from which one may fall, Since by no border 'tis engarlanded; Upon the other side of me I had The shades devout, who through the horrible seam Pressed out the tears so that they bathed their cheeks. To them I turned me, and, "O people, certain," Began I, "of beholding the high light, Which your desire has solely in its care, So may grace speedily dissolve the scum Upon your consciences, that limpidly Through them descend the river of the mind, Tell me, for dear 'twill be to me and gracious, If any soul among you here is Latian, And 'twill perchance be good for him I learn it." "O brother mine, each one is citizen Of one true city; but thy meaning is, Who may have lived in Italy a pilgrim."
Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have...
(520) Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State, which is also yours, will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst. Quite true, he replied. And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light? Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State. Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You
If Jove should weary out his smith, from whom He seized in anger the sharp thunderbolt, Wherewith upon the last day I was smitten, And if he wearied o...
(3) And he himself, who had become aware That I was questioning my Guide about him, Cried: "Such as I was living, am I, dead. If Jove should weary out his smith, from whom He seized in anger the sharp thunderbolt, Wherewith upon the last day I was smitten, And if he wearied out by turns the others In Mongibello at the swarthy forge, Vociferating, 'Help, good Vulcan, help!' Even as he did there at the fight of Phlegra, And shot his bolts at me with all his might, He would not have thereby a joyous vengeance." Then did my Leader speak with such great force, That I had never heard him speak so loud: "O Capaneus, in that is not extinguished Thine arrogance, thou punished art the more; Not any torment, saving thine own rage, Would be unto thy fury pain complete." Then he turned round to me with better lip, Saying: "One of the Seven Kings was he Who Thebes besieged, and held, and seems to hold God in disdain, and little seems to prize him; But, as I said to him, his own despites Are for his breast the fittest ornaments.
Already now the air was growing dark, But not so that between his eyes and mine It did not show what it before locked up. Tow'rds me he moved, and I...
(3) Already now the air was growing dark, But not so that between his eyes and mine It did not show what it before locked up. Tow'rds me he moved, and I tow'rds him did move; Noble Judge Nino! how it me delighted, When I beheld thee not among the damned! No greeting fair was left unsaid between us; Then asked he: "How long is it since thou camest O'er the far waters to the mountain's foot?" "Oh!" said I to him, "through the dismal places I came this morn; and am in the first life, Albeit the other, going thus, I gain." And on the instant my reply was heard, He and Sordello both shrank back from me, Like people who are suddenly bewildered. One to Virgilius, and the other turned To one who sat there, crying, "Up, Currado! Come and behold what God in grace has willed!" Then, turned to me: "By that especial grace Thou owest unto Him, who so conceals His own first wherefore, that it has no ford, When thou shalt be beyond the waters wide, Tell my Giovanna that she pray for me, Where answer to the innocent is made.
Then did my Leader lay his grasp upon me, And with his words, and with his hands and signs, Reverent he made in me my knees and brow; Then answered...
(3) Then did my Leader lay his grasp upon me, And with his words, and with his hands and signs, Reverent he made in me my knees and brow; Then answered him: "I came not of myself; A Lady from Heaven descended, at whose prayers I aided this one with my company. But since it is thy will more be unfolded Of our condition, how it truly is, Mine cannot be that this should be denied thee. This one has never his last evening seen, But by his folly was so near to it That very little time was there to turn. As I have said, I unto him was sent To rescue him, and other way was none Than this to which I have myself betaken. I've shown him all the people of perdition, And now those spirits I intend to show Who purge themselves beneath thy guardianship. How I have brought him would be long to tell thee. Virtue descendeth from on high that aids me To lead him to behold thee and to hear thee. Now may it please thee to vouchsafe his coming; He seeketh Liberty, which is so dear, As knoweth he who life for her refuses.
How many are esteemed great kings up there, Who here shall be like unto swine in mire, Leaving behind them horrible dispraises!" And I: "My Master,...
(3) How many are esteemed great kings up there, Who here shall be like unto swine in mire, Leaving behind them horrible dispraises!" And I: "My Master, much should I be pleased, If I could see him soused into this broth, Before we issue forth out of the lake." And he to me: "Ere unto thee the shore Reveal itself, thou shalt be satisfied; Such a desire 'tis meet thou shouldst enjoy." A little after that, I saw such havoc Made of him by the people of the mire, That still I praise and thank my God for it. They all were shouting, "At Philippo Argenti!" And that exasperate spirit Florentine Turned round upon himself with his own teeth. We left him there, and more of him I tell not; But on mine ears there smote a lamentation, Whence forward I intent unbar mine eyes. And the good Master said: "Even now, my Son, The city draweth near whose name is Dis, With the grave citizens, with the great throng." And I: "Its mosques already, Master, clearly Within there in the valley I discern Vermilion, as if issuing from the fire
"And if I lead you into the region of the rulers of the Fate, then will ye see the glory in which they are, and because of their overtowering great...
(2) "And if I lead you into the region of the rulers of the Fate, then will ye see the glory in which they are, and because of their overtowering great glory ye will deem this world before you as darkness of darknesses, and ye will look at the whole world of men, how it will have the condition of a speck of dust for you because of the great distance it is far distant from it, and because of the great condition it is considerably greater than it.
When therefore Sybaris was captured, and the land taken in the war was not divided by lot, according to the desire of the multitude, their silent hatr...
(5) Moreover, as long as the Crotonians continued in their own country, and Pythagoras dwelt with them, that form of government remained which had been established when the city was founded, but which was not pleasing to the people, and therefore induced them to seek an occasion of producing a change. When therefore Sybaris was captured, and the land taken in the war was not divided by lot, according to the desire of the multitude, their silent hatred of the Pythagoreans burst forth, and the populace separated themselves from them. But the leaders of this dissension were those that were most near to the Pythagoreans, both by alliance and familiarity. The cause however of the discord was this, that many of the actions of the Pythagoreans offended these leaders, as well as casual persons, because these actions had something peculiar in them when compared with those of others. But in the greatest of these actions they conceived that disgrace befel themselves alone.
My Master said: "That one is Cacus, who Beneath the rock upon Mount Aventine Created oftentimes a lake of blood. He goes not on the same road with...
(2) My Master said: "That one is Cacus, who Beneath the rock upon Mount Aventine Created oftentimes a lake of blood. He goes not on the same road with his brothers, By reason of the fraudulent theft he made Of the great herd, which he had near to him; Whereat his tortuous actions ceased beneath The mace of Hercules, who peradventure Gave him a hundred, and he felt not ten." While he was speaking thus, he had passed by, And spirits three had underneath us come, Of which nor I aware was, nor my Leader, Until what time they shouted: "Who are you?" On which account our story made a halt, And then we were intent on them alone. I did not know them; but it came to pass, As it is wont to happen by some chance, That one to name the other was compelled, Exclaiming: "Where can Cianfa have remained?" Whence I, so that the Leader might attend, Upward from chin to nose my finger laid. If thou art, Reader, slow now to believe What I shall say, it will no marvel be, For I who saw it hardly can admit it.
Yes, he said; the States are as bad as the men; and I am very far from praising them. But do you not admire, I said, the coolness and dexterity of the...
(426) under pain of death to alter the constitution; and yet he who most sweetly courts those who live under this regime and indulges them and fawns upon them and is skilful in anticipating and gratifying their humours is held to be a great and good statesman—do not these States resemble the persons whom I was describing? Yes, he said; the States are as bad as the men; and I am very far from praising them. But do you not admire, I said, the coolness and dexterity of these ready ministers of political corruption? Yes, he said, I do; but not of all of them, for there are some whom the applause of the multitude has deluded into the belief that they are really statesmen, and these are not much to be admired. What do you mean? I said; you should have more feeling for them. When a man cannot measure, and a great many others who cannot measure declare that he is four cubits high, can he help believing what they say? Nay, he said, certainly not in that case. Well, then, do not be angry with them; for are they not as good as a play, trying their hand at paltry reforms such as I was describing; they are always fancying that by legislation they will make an end of frauds in contracts, and the other rascalities which I was mentioning, not knowing that they are in reality cutting off the heads of a hydra?
This realm secure and full of gladsomeness, Crowded with ancient people and with modern, Unto one mark had all its look and love. O Trinal Light,...
(2) This realm secure and full of gladsomeness, Crowded with ancient people and with modern, Unto one mark had all its look and love. O Trinal Light, that in a single star Sparkling upon their sight so satisfies them, Look down upon our tempest here below! If the barbarians, coming from some region That every day by Helice is covered, Revolving with her son whom she delights in, Beholding Rome and all her noble works, Were wonder-struck, what time the Lateran Above all mortal things was eminent,— I who to the divine had from the human, From time unto eternity, had come, From Florence to a people just and sane, With what amazement must I have been filled! Truly between this and the joy, it was My pleasure not to hear, and to be mute. And as a pilgrim who delighteth him In gazing round the temple of his vow, And hopes some day to retell how it was, So through the living light my way pursuing Directed I mine eyes o'er all the ranks, Now up, now down, and now all round about.
But how simple of you to use the term State at all of any but our own! Why so? You ought to speak of other States in the plural number; not one of the...
(422) poor State if the wealth of many States were to be gathered into one. But how simple of you to use the term State at all of any but our own! Why so? You ought to speak of other States in the plural number; not one of them is a city, but many cities, as they say in the game. For indeed any city, however small, is in fact divided into two, one the city of the poor, the other of the rich; these are at war with one another; and in either there are many smaller divisions, and you would be altogether beside the mark if you treated them all as a single State. But if you deal with them as many, and give the wealth or power or persons of the one to the others, you will always have a great many friends and not many enemies. And your State, while the wise order which has now been prescribed continues to prevail in her, will be the greatest of States, I do not mean to say in reputation or appearance, but in deed and truth, though she number not more than a thousand defenders. A single State which is her equal you will hardly find, either among Hellenes or barbarians, though many that appear to be as great and many times greater. That is most true, he said. And what, I said, will be the best limit for our rulers to fix when they are considering the size of the State and the amount of territory which they are to include, and beyond which they will not go? What limit would you propose? I would allow the State to increase so far as is consistent with unity; that, I think, is the proper limit.
May I suppose that the judgment is given in the hearing of us all by one who is able to judge, and has dwelt in the same place with him, and been pres...
(577) a like request, that I should have a judge whose mind can enter into and see through human nature? he must not be like a child who looks at the outside and is dazzled at the pompous aspect which the tyrannical nature assumes to the beholder, but let him be one who has a clear insight. May I suppose that the judgment is given in the hearing of us all by one who is able to judge, and has dwelt in the same place with him, and been present at his dally life and known him in his family relations, where he may be seen stripped of his tragedy attire, and again in the hour of public danger—he shall tell us about the happiness and misery of the tyrant when compared with other men? That again, he said, is a very fair proposal. Shall I assume that we ourselves are able and experienced judges and have before now met with such a person? We shall then have some one who will answer our enquiries. By all means. Let me ask you not to forget the parallel of the individual and the State; bearing this in mind, and glancing in turn from one to the other of them, will you tell me their respective conditions? What do you mean? he asked. Beginning with the State, I replied, would you say that a city which is governed by a tyrant is free or enslaved? No city, he said, can be more completely enslaved. And yet, as you see, there are freemen as well as masters in such a State? Yes, he said, I see that there are—a few; but the people, speaking generally, and the best of them are miserably degraded and enslaved.
And I took the third of their power, in order that they should not be able to accomplish their evil deeds. And the Fate and the sphere, over which the...
(1) "It came to pass then, when I came into their region, that they mutinied and fought against the light. And I took the third of their power, in order that they should not be able to accomplish their evil deeds. And the Fate and the sphere, over which they rule, I have changed, and set them facing the left six months and accomplishing their influences, and I have set them turned another six months to the right and accomplishing their influences."
But when they had told their parents what they had heard, a thousand men having called Pythagoras into the senate-house, and praised him for what he h...
(1) And this indeed is what he said to the young men in the Gymnasium. But when they had told their parents what they had heard, a thousand men having called Pythagoras into the senate-house, and praised him for what he had said to their sons, desired him, if he had any thing advantageous to say to the Crotonians, to unfold it to those who were the leaders of the administration. He was also the first that advised them to build a temple to the Muses, in order that they might preserve the existing concord. For he observed that all these divinities were called by one common name, [the Muses,] that they subsisted in conjunction with each other, especially rejoiced in common honors, and in short, that there was always one and the same choir of the Muses.
He likewise farther observed, that they comprehended in themselves symphony, harmony, rythm, and all things which procure concord. They also evince that their power does not alone extend to the most beautiful theorems, but likewise to the symphony and harmony of things. In the next place, he said it was necessary they should apprehend that they received their country from the multitude of the citizens, as a common deposit. Hence, it was requisite they should so govern it, that they might faithfully transmit it to their posterity, as an hereditary possession. And that this would firmly be effected, if they were equal in all things to the citizens, and surpassed them in nothing else than justice. For men knowing that every place requires justice, have asserted in fables that Themis has the same order with Jupiter, that Dice, i. e. justice, is seated by Pluto, and that Law is established in cities; in order that he who does not act justly in things which his rank in society requires him to perform, may at the same time appear to be unjust towards the whole world.
He added, it was proper that the senators should not make use of any of the Gods for the purpose of an oath, but that their language should be such as to render them worthy of belief even without oaths. And likewise, that they should so manage their own domestic affairs, as to make the government of them the object of their deliberate choice. That they should also be genuinely disposed towards their own offspring, as being the only animals that have a sensation of this conception. And that they should so associate with a wife the companion of life, as to be mindful that other compacts are engraved in tables and pillars, but those with wives are inserted in children. That they should likewise endeavour to be beloved by their offspring, not through nature, of which they were not the causes, but through deliberate choice: for this is voluntary beneficence.
Yes, he said, that is what will happen in a well-ordered State. It will now be time, I said, for us to return to our State and see whether this or som...
(462) or evil, the whole State will make his case their own, and will either rejoice or sorrow with him? Yes, he said, that is what will happen in a well-ordered State. It will now be time, I said, for us to return to our State and see whether this or some other form is most in accordance with these fundamental principles. Very good. Our State like every other has rulers and subjects? True. All of whom will call one another citizens? Of course. But is there not another name which people give to their rulers in other States? Generally they call them masters, but in democratic States they simply call them rulers. And in our State what other name besides that of citizens do the people give the rulers? They are called saviours and helpers, he replied. And what do the rulers call the people? Their maintainers and foster-fathers. And what do they call them in other States? Slaves. And what do the rulers call one another in other States? Fellow-rulers. And what in ours? Fellow-guardians. Did you ever know an example in any other State of a ruler who would speak of one of his colleagues as his friend and of another as not being his friend? Yes, very often. And the friend he regards and describes as one in whom